Archive 

Richard Dawkins' Delusion about God

 A critical review of the Questions and Answers session

in Eden Court Theatre, Inverness 2/4/2008

by

Dr Donald Boyd

 

Dr. Donald Boyd

Donald Boyd1

THE archbishop was in town and his disciples came to meet him. The details of this historic meeting of the faithful in Eden Court Theatre, Inverness, on 2nd April 2008 are available elsewhere on this website. Richard Dawkins had come to Inverness to rally the faithful and to make as many converts to atheism as he could. His book The God Delusion was on sale, to be autographed by its evangelising author who tells us plainly “If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down.” p. 28. Ex opere operato as the theologians would say.

 
I wish to begin this review by acknowledging that Richard Dawkins is doing his best, with the materials that he has available, to discredit false religion. This is a good work.  If he cannot make the distinction between false religion and true Christianity, it is possible that this is the fault of the Christian church more than his fault. The fact that he has not met enough intelligent arguments to convince his reason may not be his fault.
 
This well-attended meeting began with an Introduction by the UHI's Principal Professor Bob Cormack followed by a staged hour-long Conversation between Dawkins and a local atheist activist Paula Kirby followed by about one hour of Questions from the floor The auditorium was well filled by the generous provision of free tickets under the auspices of the fledgling University of the Highlands and Islands (UHI) Millennium Institute.
 
The Conversation was more or less a summary of The God Delusion. The format allowed Richard Dawkins to explain his atheistic views, and as these appear in his book, and I have no desire to spread these views uncritically, I will concentrate on the Questions and Answers session which was chaired by Gary Robertson, who presents BBC Radio Scotland’s flagship morning news programme Good Morning Scotland.
 
Like a skilled evangelist, Richard Dawkins made his dogmatic assertions with boldness. Possibly he hoped that no-one would notice the difference between assertion and fact; like the speaker’s marginal note ‘argument weak, shout loudly’. As he likes to do at public meetings, he quoted a particularly offensive sentence from The God Delusion about the God of the Bible which he thinks is funny and which raises a laugh from his sympathetic audience. His readiness to live up to his bruising reputation was unsurprising, and this behaviour may yet rub off on his admiring followers; but what surprised me was the number of childish titters at what were thought to be good points. Yet the audience was not made up of admiring teenagers but a mature body of people. Perhaps they are not used to hearing an atheist scoring points in such a brusque manner. Long may this continue.
 
There were a number of questions which had the appearance of lobbing a cricket ball for Dawkins to hit. This was expected from the Conversational half, with a suitably soft interviewer, Paula Kirby, a Christian-turned-atheist – a billing which no doubt did not meet with Richard Dawkins’ approval as he thinks ‘atheist-turned-Christian’ billings are beside the point. During the Questions and Answers section there were suitable questions to allow a few more hits from the brickbat. Very few questions seemed to come from Christians, although there were some. There were some interesting questions, some of which were not answered.
 
The Questions and Answers Session
 
During the Questions and Answers session Dawkins demonstrated his usual, incisive ability to analyze and answer questions.
 
1. The first question was a fairly easy one, to the effect: Will animals ever be conscious like us? He doubts it will happen in the near future and, besides, evolution cannot predict what will happen.
 
2. The second question: If the whole world becomes atheist, what will society look like in view of the fact that people get solace in religion? Dawkins doubts that there is much solace in religion. He quoted hell as an example and emphasised that those who preached on hell were evil, putting emphasis on the word ‘evil’. So evolutionists have their moral standards too, and Dawkins believes in evil, unlike some psychologists. This reviewer doesn’t know why we should subscribe to Dawkins’ moral standards any more than he is willing to submit to God’s moral law. I would be happier to say that those who manipulate others with the doctrine of hell are doing evil work. Dawkins prefers to judge the character of some of the most mild-mannered people I know. He does not credit them with being mistaken. No – they are evil by Diktat of Dawkins.
 
3. One questioner could understand apes evolving into humans but not bacteria into humans. This gave Dawkins an opportunity to demonstrate the fertility of his imagination as he mimed some of the evolutionary process.
 
4. It can be more interesting to note what is not said by a speaker as well as what is said. In this regard, this reviewer found it quite interesting to notice the questions which were not answered. The next question was not answered. He was asked a question by one of the foremost legal minds in the country. The question was: “Can you give a succinct definition of life?” This must be a simple question, or judged to be so by Dawkins’ admirers, for there was a general titter at the question; not for the first time, mind you. But then, the former Lord Chancellor of Great Britain, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, has spent a lifetime in court asking simple-sounding questions which lead unsuspecting people into exposing themselves. This was to be no different.
 
To retrace our steps a bit... Dawkins had been asked by Paula during the Conversation: Why give offence to religious people? He replied that religion has been given a free ride for too long, and that religion should not be immune from offence. Asked if religious people did not deserve respect, he replied that respect is what people deserve, the implication being that one earns respect, and if they deserve ridicule they should get it. Perhaps this is why his disciples followed in their master’s footsteps and don’t know how to show respect to people’s questions. This may give a glimpse into the spirit of an atheist society. Perhaps it is because they do not recognise a complex question because of the reductionist simplicity of their thinking, which likes to reduce complex issues to simple ones that they can understand; and if they cannot understand it, it must be foolish. Anyway, Lord Mackay’s question deserved a teenage titter.
 
So, unbeknown to the tittering audience, the foremost legal mind in Britain asks the Charles Simonyi Professor for the Public Understanding of Science a succinct question, looking for a succinct answer from a man trained in zoology to the highest level.   You see, a man who had spent his life watching witnesses and listening for flaws in legal arguments had heard Richard Dawkins assert in his Conversation that the appearance of design is a strong argument “and life was the theists’ trump card. Darwinism blew it out of the water; so they have abandoned biology and retreated to physics and astronomy.” This reviewer thought that it was the other way round, that evolutionists were looking for their kick-start in life from astronomy, but he is happy to learn that Professor Dawkins feels that he can still win the argument with mundane evidence. I hope that he won’t take to the stars to try to hold his ground.
 
Anyway, back to the question, or more particularly, to the answer – or non-answer. Life was the theists’ trump card, was it? And Darwin blew it out of the water? So Lord Mackay asks ever so simple a question: “Can you give a succinct definition of life?” So what did the Professor say? After all, zoology is about life. Surely he has a pat, well-rehearsed answer to so simple a question, this man who majors in reducing the complex to simplicity. Surely he has answered this question at least to himself many times before? Well, this reviewer is still waiting to hear a sensible answer.

So what did we hear? His first attempt at an answer was that life began with the first self-replicating molecule. I don’t think Dawkins was tittering – more like stuttering. After a few more sentences he told us that it was the first gene. Sorry, did I catch it correctly? Life is the first self-replicating molecule, or it is the first gene? ‘Respect is what a man deserves?’ My teenage children, being taught critical analysis by their father in after-church fellowships, would fall about laughing if they heard this answer, and I would need to teach them some self-restraint. I would remind them that this is a very famous professor and he deserves more respect while he composes himself to give us a proper and better answer. But it didn’t come. This was the sum and the substance of the answer. Not very succinct, but very clear in its barrenness. “By their fruits you shall know them” said a better Teacher. As a good Calvinist, I leave the reader to judge for himself with his God-given freedom of thought and conscience, but for myself I assert clearly that this is no definition of life. The questioner exposed the emperor’s nakedness.
 
The sad epilogue to my tale is that it probably went unnoticed by most people present. You see, if Lord Mackay explains his credentials, then these people may listen to his question with more respect. When an anonymous individual arises from the audience to ask a simple question, you can be rude and show your supercilious knowledge with titters. Lord Mackay concluded his questions unannounced and our teenage titterers are probably no wiser about Dawkins’ exposure.

It is a pity that they cannot recognize good questions for what they are without an authority figure being identified with them. Is this part of the atheist baggage – this judging a question important and sensible only if they think an important person asks it? or is it just learned behaviour from the master? If these titterers cannot learn from Christians, possibly they should read their Bertrand Russell beginner’s manual in philosophy to appreciate a little profundity in life – assuming that they discover what life is after Professor Dawkins has brushed up his answer for the next time.

Back to more mundane questions....

5. One questioner asked if some religious leaders were using God as a cover for their own agenda? Dawkins miscalled a particular religious leader, who may have deserved it for all I know, and gave the witty reply that he would hate to blame God for him. This drew another titter; but we won’t be mean nor hard on them – it was quite funny. At least he doesn’t blame God for all the evil in the world; that’s a relief.
 
6. Another questioner asked if Dawkins thought theists are bad scientists? He replied that religion and science don’t mix. He claimed that those scientists who are Christian believe in God in the sense that Einstein did, merely as a manner of speech to describe the wonder of the universe. He had been in Edinburgh and claimed that Bishop Richard Holloway is an agnostic. Dawkins found it hard to understand how Christian scientists could find compatibility between their religion and science; he assumes that they must be compartmentalizing their thinking.  Am I concluding correctly from this answer that Richard Dawkins has never met a scientist who believes in the Christian God? Have I made a wrong inference from his answer? Woe to Christianity when its scientists are too frightened to confess the same in Dawkins’ confessional box.
 
7. Another questioner asked if science could give any meaning to life? Like Jesus, but with less purpose and effect, Dawkins responded with another question: Why ask this question? He knocked back the questioner: Some questions don’t deserve an answer. Ah! We can discern one of the axioms of the atheist science curriculum. Don’t ask awkward – sorry – ignorant questions, or unanswerable questions. So Dawkins went on to illustrate: What is the colour of jealousy? is a legitimate grammatical question, but it has no meaning and does not deserve an answer. This raises a few thoughts in my mind.

    (a) I remember Dawkins in The God Delusion accusing Christians of forestalling scientific enquiry. Is the kettle calling the pot black by this Index of Forbidden Questions? No matter – it is a tendentious accusation.

    (b)  Is Dawkins really saying that science cannot give any meaning to life? This seems to be a fair deduction from his reply. Could he have meant it is a rhetorical question, and thus it does not need rather than deserve an answer? My Christian charity, which does not suffer me to think ill of my neighbour, will put this construction upon his answer, although I think I discerned a collective Ouch! from the audience.

    (c) Rather, there are some questions that people cannot answer because they don’t understand the question. Possibly ‘meaning’ has no meaning for Professor Dawkins; or was it ‘meaning in life’ which upset him? Thankfully his genes are made of stern stuff. This student of natural selection has learned to cope admirably with unpredictability adverse conditions.
 
8. A more sympathetic questioner allowed him some breathing space to regain his composure. Britain may be smug about its secular society compared to the United States, intoned the next questioner, but as a teacher he did not see increased levels of rationality in society. (For rationality read atheism.) What can we do to increase it? Dawkins said that we must teach critical thinking in place of indoctrination. Yes, Jesus agrees with this; and He was even more radical than Dawkins – which may be why Dawkins thinks this is the path to fame and influence. Dawkins seemed to admit that the distinction is difficult in practice, but this reviewer did not catch this part of his argument as I was making my way to the microphone with my own question. I was surprised that he did not lay on thick the indoctrination of children at this point. You see, an atheist state will not be well pleased if you teach your children your religion.
In China parents are not allowed to teach their own children their religion. You are meant to procreate for the good of society or, according to Dawkins, for the good of your genes, because Dawkins’ Diktat asserts that group-selection or society is not the reason. Correction–good is not the appropriate word for natural selection; read ‘survival’. Even if you cannot follow the argument, just don’t teach your children your religion. Sorry? Whose children are they, Professor Dawkins? If they are not their parents’ children, and they don’t belong to God, they are certainly not society’s. Ah! the answer: Suffer the little children to come unto Dawkins, and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of atheism.


9.
The next questioner wondered if the CERN accelerator would find the ultimate particle and building blocks of nature, and if this will put the final nail in the coffin of religion? Dawkins is too smart to put his faith – yes, he does have faith and he is smart – in the CERN particle accelerator. He reminded us that he is not a physicist. Mind you, Dawkins’ Delusion reminds us that he is not a theologian either. A big prediction about the future, which he had already told us evolution cannot do, might have been better avoided by claims to being a non-theologian than by not being a physicist. I suspect that physicists would claim that they are not good at hammering nails into coffins, although God has quite a lot to say about coffins and their contents.

Dawkins continued – experimental physics might provide answers, but we may have to go much deeper than this. He joked that he confessed to having an ‘almost religious feeling about this!’ This is not wholly tongue-in-cheek as Dawkins would like to transfer our wonder and awe from God to science. Gary Robertson asked if Dawkins had any fears about CERN trying to recreate the conditions of the Big Bang. He replied that physicists had assured him that it was unlikely to cause a problem. So he has faith in physicists’ predictions about an unknown future. I wonder what evidence he used to reach this faith? Does he just trust these physicists? Naughty boy!
 
I made a serendipitous discovery while writing this up, which illustrates nicely our topic. I wished to ascertain the exact location of CERN, in Switzerland. After downloading a 44 page PDF file and wading through a myriad of facts and fine details to do with What? When? How? Will? Why? - with multiple Why? subsections (who said Science does not ask Why?) the question Where? was still unanwered! So where is CERN?
Eventually on p. 34 buried in ‘10 Fascinating Facts’ we are told it is ‘between Lake Geneva and the Jura mountain range’ - not to increase your knowledge of its location but to show you the accuracy of their tunnelling technique.
I hope your geography is good enough to get the answer from this. I think at least one interesting fact in this long document might be to tell us where it is! Herein is a secular parable. Even scientists can miss the wood for the trees. Keep this mind; sleight of hand distracts you.
 
10. Another questioner asked about the apparent ‘arms race’ between evolution producing varied offspring and intelligent humans wanting no children. Dawkins replied that contraception, the arts, and other pleasures were distracting us from the real business of getting on with reproduction. It is difficult to know how serious he was with this answer. It is, of course, preposterous that human culture and pursuits are distractions. Perish the thought! This pessimistic worldview is supposed to be the preserve of Calvinists and Puritans, not world-famous atheists.
 
11. One women asked why the cells of a new infant did not have the age of its parents. Dolly the sheep, cloned from an adult sheep, had signs of premature aging. Do genes have an age? Dawkins replied that the germ cells of a 75-year-old adult would be sub-standard, but he did not answer the question. He had struggled to hear the question and I think that he genuinely did not hear it properly. This is a pity, for this was one of the more interesting questions and although the answer is quite straight-forward, one would like to hear his answer to it. It is interesting that this is the second biological question which was not answered by our professor trained in zoology.
 
12. He was asked if any philosopher had influenced his thinking as he seemed to be reviving the teaching of Nietzsche that God is dead. This was an easy ball: he replied that he was not influenced by many philosophers and he didn’t believe that God was dead because he believed that God never existed.

13. A Christian youth worker said that he had learned from Dawkins’ book about the importance of teaching critical evaluation to children but he wondered why Dawkins insisted that the source behind the universe had to be simple and not complex. Dawkins repeated the standard answer in his book which was the mere assertion that it must be so - Dawkins’ Diktat again.   He employed the statistical improbability of a complex Being at the beginning of the Universe. He said that complexity is what we are trying to explain, so we cannot have a complex God at the beginning. There are at least two mistakes with this.

    (a) Dawkins petulantly refuses to heed the Christian doctrine of God and prefers to insist on his own definition. He has thus produced a god of his own devising and knocked down this proverbial aunt Sally. Christians agree that God is not complex in the sense that the material Universe is complex, and Christian theologians declare that God is simple. Dawkins knows this The God Delusion pp. 185-187, but he insists on saying that God must be complex. More Dawkins’ Diktat. He is not arguing against the Christian God.

    (b) His second mistake is to assume that God is part of this Universe (or Multiverses as astrophysical evolutionists imagine) and thus He must partake of the properties of the Universe, including composition from basic particles, or complexity. This is a fundamental mistake of enormous proportions which comes from Dawkins’ refusal to even try to be a theologian. This just makes him a bad theologian instead of a good or non-theologian. In his answer Dawkins accepted that if we mean by God that there may be a quantum fluctuation in the Universe, hitherto undiscovered, then he could agree with this - but then the argument is about words. What Christians called God he would call a quantum fluctuation, and this is simple and not complex. However there is no reason to give that quantum fluctuation the properties of the Christian God Who hears prayer and forgives sin.

Precisely, Professor Dawkins, Christians would never demean their God so as to identify Him with a quantum effect, for the Christian God is not part of His universe, which is a pantheistic error. It is evident that God upholds the Universe through such quantum effects throughout the Universe and thereby controls the whole. I use ‘evident’ advisely, as related to the word evidence, the holy grail of Dawkins’ non-quest for God Whom he appears to hope he will never find. Richard Dawkins doesn’t want to contemplate the Christian God; he wants a god he can handle in his mind or not at all. In Psalm 50:21 God points out the error of human beings thinking that God is like themselves.

14. The chairman, Gary Robertson, reminded us that time was short so questions should be brief. The next question came from this reviewer who said that Richard Dawkins had appealed for evidence before he could believe in God. The questioner suggested that we must take all the evidence into account, not just part of it, yet The God Delusion did not handle two of the principal arguments used in the Bible for the being of God. He said that the God of the Bible’s own proof of His Being was that He could foretell the future. We know that Newtonian Physics can predict the future at one level, but the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle showed that we could not do it absolutely. (Dawkins had already said in his answer to the first question that evolution cannot predict what will happen.)  
Dawkins expressed his astonishment that anyone would use the Bible as an authority. The questioner said that God showed that He could foretell the future by the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecies. Dawkins sought refuge from this argument by quoting modern biblical scholars who say that the New Testament text has been doctored to fulfil the Old Testament prophecies, (thus putting a lot of sparsely available Dawkins’ faith in these biblical scholars, who wouldn’t have got a salary to do their work if it was up to Dawkins).
The questioner came back that Dawkins was asking for evidence and that some of the Old Testament evidence was quite independent of the New Testament as it was used by early Christians before there was any New Testament, thus the evidence can be impartially analysed now and it is independent of the New Testament text. So Dawkins challenged him to prove fulfilled prophecy. The questioner said it was quite easy and well-known to many Christians, with many prophecies available.
Gary Robertson stepped in to allow only one. So the questioner stated that the Old Testament prophecies can be independently shown to have been written 300 years before Christ because the Septuagint Greek translation was made at that time. Yet Dan 9:25-27 predicted that Christ would come and be killed before the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D.
Dawkins responded that people can make prophecies say what they want them to say and that we only the notice the ones which come true. The questioner responded that these Old Testament prophecies can be dated and the fulfilment can be dated. So there the exchange had to end to allow time for the remaining questions. With Dawkins’ beaten from his New Testament defence, he retreated to the defence that people make prophecies mean what they want. So let readers read them for themselves instead of relying on Dawkins’ interpretation.
 
15. A question whether teaching religion is tantamount to child abuse yielded a balanced reply from Dawkins with a less balanced but pointed quotation from Steven Weinberg that “For good people to do bad things – that takes religion.” (applause). Does Richard Dawkins think that good atheists don’t do bad things? This is what this quotation implies. Dawkins believes that atheists are good people; so this translates into “For atheists to do bad things – that takes religion.” Ergo:as atheists don’t ‘do religion’ they don’t do bad things! This shows how truth must give way to the propaganda value of a catchy quote.

There is a way by which we can make the statement stand, and that is to recall that agnosticism and atheism are just bad religion and thus their devotees can be included in the statement. However, this is not what Dawkins meant. A Christian may think that the quotation can be made more accurate if we substitute the phrase ‘false religion’ for religion, but, sadly, even true religion has its perverters. The pertinent idea in this catchy slogan is that the sensitive religious conscience of good men can be coerced to do bad things. This is an alarming truth. Thus the 16th Century Protestant Reformers spent much time on the subject of liberty of conscience, studying its limits and how it operates in order to escape the ensnaring tentacles of Roman Catholic dogma. Modern man knows very little about this and thus his conscience is easily manipulated and coerced, including religious man. However atheists and agnostics fool themselves if they think they are immune from this.
 
16. The next question drew attention to the intellect of human beings enabling us to bring about our own destruction and possibly that of the planet. Will we destroy ourselves? This brought forth the depressing answer that “evolution has no foresight” implying that if an evolutionary development moves in a self-destructing direction then it will continue as it cannot see the future. Dawkins gives examples of this in The God Delusion, for example, why moths fly into candle flames p. 201. Dawkins advocated that foresight came into world with advanced brains. He concedes that it appears that human beings are unique in their ability to look ahead.

This reviewer couldn’t help thinking of the prophecy or foresight argument mentioned earlier for the Being of God and of the second biblical proof for the Being God – that man is made in the image of God. A thoughtful observer of the rationalist-religion debate will notice the large number of cross-over ideas and points where the same reasoning processes are arriving at different conclusions because of the different initial presuppositions. Back to Dawkins–he reminded his questioner that natural selection does not favour humans so if we engage in self-destructive behaviour, so be it. After all, 99% of species have already become extinct.   This is ‘bad news’ – Richard Dawkins has no gospel.
 
17. The next questioner asked if Dawkins thought that an atheist society will have a secular church. Dawkins accepted that it appears to be part of the human condition that people need fellowship, but he saw no need to have an alternative to church.


18. The last questioner asked Dawkins what he had to say to someone like him who had many decades of Christian witness and experience? Dawkins replied that if he had been born in India he would say the same thing about Krishna, if he was born in Afghanistan he would say the same thing about Allah; and so on with a well-rehearsed list of the religions and gods of the Vikings and Greeks. He concluded that the human mind is very susceptible to hallucination. The questioner responded that he was not building his life on a hallucination but on the Rock Jesus Christ. Dawkins concluded that he did not doubt the questioner’s sincerity but he thought that he was hallucinating.

This reviewer acknowledges that Dawkins is quite right to say that people too readily adopt the religion of their parents in an uncritical fashion, but Dawkins did not address nor explain how conversion from one religion to another takes place by adults even at great personal sacrifice. He has an evolutionary explanation for this behaviour, but it is a subject which cannot be subsumed under the category of uncritical acceptance of the teaching of authority figures, which I think was the essence of his answer. Anyway, the answer to the question asked ‘what do you have to say?’ was ‘you are hallucinating’. Thus the Questions and Answers session finished on this note of the gratuitous assumption that hallucination can explain all religious experience.
 
Concluding thoughts
 
Goliath came to town to defy the God of Israel as well as the false gods of all history. He stalked up and down the valley issuing his challenges to the armies of Israel to fight with him. Many Christians stayed at home this day; they had better things to do. Others watched in bemusement, pretending they could engage him if only he was not so strident. Others, more honest, considered themselves not up to the fight, and like the armies of Israel remained on the sidelines watching.
 
Thankfully some have taken him on, such as David Robertson in The Dawkins Letters. The Christian Church will need to address the arguments and take to the field of battle. Disparaging, impassioned, ad hominem arguments will not do, nor will phlegmatic condemnation, nor a patronising, supercilious, sanctimonious sigh. Let the Christian Church pray, and when God answers its prayers it will be by someone answering Dawkins’ arguments. Can someone not answer him, or is the only way to answer Dawkins for God to convert him so that he will expose the weakness of his own arguments? Happy day for Dawkins if this happens; meanwhile the Christian Church will need to work as well as pray. Proper prayer is goal-directed, unlike blind evolution. We don’t want blind faith, blind prayers nor blind watchmakers. We have a goal and a vision, directed by our Lord Jesus Christ. Let us live worthy of Him.
 
One Christian magazine carried a review of The God Delusion from a former atheist who stated that one of the strongest critiques of The God Delusion came from the Marxist philosopher Terry Eagleton in the London Review of Books for 19 October 2006. It is a pity that the strongest critique did not come from a Christian. Eagleton is an ex-Roman Catholic atheist. His review is more of an outpouring of angst at Dawkins’ lumping all religion together. “Critics of the richest, most enduring form of popular culture in human history have a moral obligation to confront that case at its most persuasive, rather than grabbing themselves a victory on the cheap by savaging it as so much garbage and gobbledygook.”

His review supplies a reassertion of garbled theology which will not persuade nor move Dawkins one iota. He does not address Richard Dawkins’ arguments about God, and it is more of a protest rather than a reasoned rebuttal of Richard Dawkins’ arguments. Atheist though he was, Eagleton did not like Dawkins’ strident knocking of his former religionists. Doesn’t it show how hard it is for old loyalties to die? This review was an impassioned rant against Dawkins which amounted to: how dare he miscall so many good religious people! If this type of response is typical, then Goliath will continue to stalk the Christian camp. Our Protestant Reformers knew how to debate and win arguments.
 
Having listened to Richard Dawkins and reported here his answers to individual questions, there is not one answer to any of these questions which lays a finger on the Christian religion. He doesn’t even deign to consider the Christian God.
However it is important to make distinctions. Richard Dawkins divides The God Delusion into two. The first half explains why he does not believe in God, the second half why he does not believe in religion. It is correct to make such a distinction. For a man who does not believe in God Richard Dawkins has many things to say about His non-existence. It reminds me of a more radical Teacher Who declared: “You do err, not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.”

However, we need to recognise that Dawkins’ real target is religion, not God. His method of attacking religion is to deny the Being of God. In our Christian zeal to honour God we must not be seen to defend false religion. We join common cause with Dawkins against the superstitious bondage of false religion, the hallucinations which are passed off for religious experience, the manipulation of the religious conscience, blind faith and the islamic terrorism which motivates his passion against false religion.
Jesus was more radical than Dawkins is on these subjects, and He used strong language against false teachers of religion. The Reformers delivered us from such false religion but we have fallen upon poor times, although not hopeless times. Richard Dawkins is taking on false religion in a manner that too many Christians are failing to do. Christians should not make excuses for false religion but seek to win its devotees to Christ.
 
There is a spell on Richard Dawkins, but it is not a God-spell. Dawkins has no Gospel. The report of his performance in the local newspaper The Inverness Courier highlights his depressing message. “Outspoken atheist warns of human extinction threat” reads the banner headline, with a highlighted quote: “I don’t think there has been a mechanism by which a species took steps to halt a headlong rush to extinction.”
Christians have the Gospel, the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ. We need to present the evidence for it and not promote blind faith. We do not ‘leap in the dark’. We must re-learn the gentle art of ‘persuading men’ with arguments which commend themselves to every man’s conscience (2Cor 5:11). “Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” Isa 1:18.
 
Dawkins will do damage to Christianity as long as its devotees bury their heads in the sand and hope the danger will go away. We need to notice that Dawkins does not attack the Christian God as he refuses to consider Him in his orbit of notice. We need to notice what Dawkins does not admit as evidence, such as the fulfilment of biblical prophecy. We need to notice that Dawkins has chosen the battleground; he wants to focus attention on natural selection which, after all, is his familiar territory.

By the way – Christians agree that natural selection takes place. His strongest argument on which he expends so much energy is a non-starter. There is no dispute over it. He is boxing his shadow, or beating the air as the apostle Paul would say. It is evolution which is false. There is a lot more evidence in this world than the evidence on which Richard Dawkins would try to focus our attention.
 
When the apostle Paul was teaching about the resurrection, he presented some arguments against it and then he concluded: ‘But now is Christ risen from the dead.’ Christians have good news to proclaim; we will leave pessimistic evolutionism to atheists.
 
 

 


Dr Donald Boyd, 29/04/2008

Feedback:
(page   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11)
Alec (Guest) 27/01/2010 13:07
OK Alan, lets deal with those points

Death as a process - there are different definitions of what is meant by "dead" there is "clinical death" "brain death" and so on. A person can be brain dead but still have a functioning heart. Our understanding of death through medical science shows it to be a lot more comples than it appears.

Which of course creates all sorts of leagal problems, but that is another debate.

I mentioned decapitation. If a decapitated person were to come back to life that would be something else. But whenever we hear of these "raised from the dead" reports, there is always a degree of ambiguity about it. Remove the ambiguity and the magical woo-woo dead-raising abilities disappear. Wonder why that is?

Regarding what the Bible says, well it mentions in Hebrews how we die ONCE. Once not twice. ONCE.

Still waiting to hear from you about the walking on water. Heres an idea - lets take a 1000 pentecostals to Castle Urquhart - and then allow them to prepare themselves by whatever means for the challenge. How many do you think would be able to walk across Loch Ness?

The idea is ridiculous.

But not when Jesus walked the earth -that WAS the age of miracles (note past tense). After all, he created carbon atoms from hydrogen and oxygen. So I have no problem with that.

You say you saw someones leg grow. Well, dont worry, I am not calling you a liar. For the simple reason that I cant actually verify this, so to say "liar" would be totally OTT. Tell mew who was this, where did it happen and when did it happen? What documented medical evidence is there for this "miracle"

Again, if you or someone else is able to grow human bone tissue at the rate you described, then there is a Nobel prize waiting

And finally, Veronique, who is apparently one of Dawkins followers. I personally dont really care about this atheism /religion thing. It gets nowhere. Terabytes have been spewed out n the web over this debate.

I am just concerned that epople report things accurately. So let me spell it out

she said: "Like a brick wall he is, with remarkable stamina .. ie Robertson is like a brick wall.

And then we get "...whose arguments are as thin as gossamer"

In other words the man is solid in his upholding of his arguments but those arguments themselves are paper thin (according to Veronique)

Alan Hughes, there is a lot of anger and aggression in you - you were the one who advocated "throwing homosexual ministers into the street"

A bad advert for christianity I think. Thats all I have to say. Take the last word if you like, if it makes you feel better. I am past caring.
Alec (Guest) 27/01/2010 14:18
Peter

Re Cessationism. Cessationism as you know is the possition of most of the presbyterian churches in the Highlands and Islands - I have to be totally honest here and say that the biblical evidnece FOR it is actually quite slim

I would also argue that the evidence AGAINST it is equally slim (although I am sure others would argue against that)

The Westminster divines were sort of, well, approx 99% cessationist, so I was told.

The problem is , like Arminianism / Calvinism , like YEC/OEC/TE/FH and all the other "origins" ideas, like the "real" / "Symbolic" presence of Christ in the sacrament, like the pre, -post or a- millennial smogasbord of eschatalogical theories, you simply cannot get a definitive answer. For every "proof" one way, there is "proof" the other.

If tany of these situationa I have outlined were black and white, then, there would be no argument, no debate and no differences of opinion

One of the most intellectually rigorous of blogs is R Scott Clarkes "Heidelblog" Ever looked at it?

There are some serious heavy hitters in there, with a variety of ideas, but yet, this type of debate comes up regularly and seldom gets resolved

AFAIAC, the way to resolve this "gifts" business is by simply looking at and observing and verifying what is on offer. In other words, take an empirical approach.

If someone makes a claim, test that claim, get them to verify it, get them to show that their "gift" is genuine and not counterfeit. After all, it was the late Carl Sagan who said that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

Over the years, there have been numerous false prophets who have made claims and in the end, they have dishonoured the name of Christ. Todd Bentley being the most recent one.

As I have said before, whenever ambiguity is removed from a "spiritual gift" scenario, it is amazing how the "gift" dries up.

I know that that answer wont satisfy everyone or indeed anyone, but its the best I've got.

I personally have never been taken in or deceived by faith healers and the like. But I did have a seriously ill friend who WAS. Tried Toronto, tried Lakeland - no cure, just death. Sad thing was, he refused medical treatment which MIGHT have just worked. Left a widow and 3 children.

God works through doctors and surgeons, not through woo-woo snake oil salesmen.
Peter Carr 27/01/2010 14:36
Alec said, "I would also argue that the evidence AGAINST it is equally slim (although I am sure others would argue against that)"

Thank you for your comprehensive response. I always prefer to take God's (and not man's) word as the final word (cf. Eph 4: 7 - 13);

"But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." (What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."
Editor 28/01/2010 11:26
To any visitor to this thread:
The thread is basically about the arguments for and against the existence of God. (The last half dozen messages are a digression into other things). So any honest enquirer will benefit from 'going back up the thread a bit'.

But just to say that anyone looking to find God (and if he exists) needs to look at His Son, Jesus Christ who was 'God made man'. And whatever problems might be found in the church or in different interpretations in the Bible, I don't think you will find any problems with the life and character of Jesus. And Jesus said himself that he is the way (route) to the Father (God).
Read (typically) Mark's Gospel and find in Christ all the majesty of God.

No credible source has ever been able to refute the person and existence of Christ.
Editor 29/01/2010 10:03
In order to allow this discussion on 'gifts' etc to proceed I have created a thread in the Debate forum.
It would be good if you could continue there.

The last two messages (above) on this thread can be copied there if the writers so wish (just copy and paste).

Otherwise the last two messages (three including this one) will be deleted in 2 days time: as will any further off-topic messages on this (Dawkins) thread.

This is in order to keep this (Dawkins) thread to continue to be relevant to the question about God's existence.

Thank you for your help in trying to keep some semblance of structure.
Editor 29/01/2010 10:13
Note to W Benn.

The genuine enquirer regarding the evidence for Jesus Christ will find it very useful to read a copy of a classic book entitled 'Evidence that demands a verdict'.
It has been republished with responses to questions raised by the first editions, and also now includes material relevant to post-modern philosophies.

The contents are as follows -

The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict
by Josh McDowell

'Evidence That Demands a Verdict' volumes 1 & 2 were classics. 'The New Evidence...' is fully updated in one volume to answer questions challenging followers of Christ in the 21st Century. This revised edition contains some helpful new material on apologetics in the light of postmodernism and the 'death of truth'.

Outline of Contents

Part 1: The Case for the Bible

* the Uniqueness of the Bible
* How we got the Bible
* Is the New Testament Historically Reliable?
* Is the Old Testament Historically Reliable?

Part 2: The Case for Jesus

* Jesus, a Man of History
* If Jesus wasn't God, He deserves an Oscar
* Significance of Deity: The 'trilemma' - Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?
* Support of Deity: Old Testament Prophecies fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
* Support of Deity: The Resurrection - Hoax or History?
* Support of Deity: The Great Proposition ('If God became a man, what would He be like?)

Part 3: The Case For and Against Christianity

Section 1: Introduction

* Is the Bible from God?
* The Presupposition of Anti-supernaturalism
* Archaeology and Biblical Criticism

Section 2: The Documentary Hypothesis & Biblical criticism

* Introduction to the Documentary Hypothesis
* Introduction to Biblical Criticism
* Introduction to the Pentateuch
* Development of the Documentary Hypothesis
* Ground Rules
* Documentary Presuppositions
* Consequences of Radical Higher Criticism
* Evidence for Mosaic Authorship
* The Phenomenon of Divine Names
* The Repetition of Accounts and Alleged Contradictions
* Incongruities
* Internal Diversity
* Conclusion to the Documentary Hypothesis

Section 3: Biblical Criticism and the New Testament

* Introduction to New Testament Form Criticism
* Historical Skepticism
* Jesus under Fire
* Conclusion to Form Criticism
* Modern Theology and Biblical Criticism

Part 4: Truth or Consequences

* The Nature of Truth
* The Knowability of Truth
* Answering Postmodernism
* Answering Skepticism
* Answering Agnosticism
* Answering Mysticism
* Certainty vs. Certitude
* Defending Miracles
* Is History Knowable?
Peter Carr 29/01/2010 12:15
It seems, (and it is certainly my experience) that many born again Christians were once 'God deniers', until God graciously revealed Himself.

And so by definition athiests are 'God deniers' who haven't yet met the self revealing God. (Or am I being too simplistic)?

Jn 3: 5 - 8 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
W Benn (Guest) 29/01/2010 12:35
Thank you editor. It is a very long read but I will get around to it in the Summer, if not before. Many thanks.
Donald Boyd 29/01/2010 13:29
W Benn’s question about “faith” 21/01/2010, 11:04 "As an aside why did God insist on faith as a key point?" is one of the more perceptive questions in these long discussions going over old questions.

I answered his question at 21/01/2010, 16:16, and he went on to ask “Does anyone give me credit for having spent years grappling with it and then being upset when I realised that I no longer had belief?” 24/01/2010, 19:32. As I am still not receiving email notification of feedback posts to this discussion I have only got round to responding now, which may be too late as he appears to have gone from this forum.

Yes, I believe you Mr Benn – Antony Flew spent a lifetime grappling like you do, and he has recently written There Is a God, HarperOne, 2007, which you can buy for a few pounds from Amazon.co.uk. As the foremost British atheistic philosopher in the second half of the 20th century, you may find his journey from atheism to theism interesting. It is an easy read. He bases it on science and firmly not upon religious experience. In my opinion, his omission of religious experience is why he has stopped short at theism and gone no further.

Theism is as far as science can take us. It cannot bring us to faith in Jesus Christ nor to a living relationship with God the Father. Faith in God is not something one gets by reading books about science. It is the gift which God gives when we come into a spiritual relationship with Him. When He reveals Himself to us by His Holy Spirit then a person inevitably believes in Him, just as one believes the Sun exists when one sees it in the sky. On the other hand it may take a lot to persuade a blind person that there is such a thing as the Sun in the sky. He may “spend years grappling with it and then being upset” when he realised that he could not believe it upon someone else’s testimony. I understand this very well.

Personal experience is self-evidencing, but it is not good enough evidence for someone else. One may believe something on someone else’s testimony but one still prefers personal evidence. This is the distinction made by the Samaritans. “Many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him [Jesus] for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.” Jn 4:39. This is the belief of testimony. But the Scripture continues: “Many more believed because of his own word; and said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Jn 4:42. This is personal evidence. These are vital distinctions.

It appears to me that some people who love science have spent little time trying to understand what faith is. It is perceptive that W Benn asked this question, because it is central to Christ’s teaching about salvation and the knowledge of God.
Peter Carr 01/02/2010 08:25
(I thought this one deserved another airing, rather than going ignored)!

It seems, (and it is certainly my experience) that many born again Christians were once 'God deniers', until God graciously revealed Himself.

And so by definition athiests are 'God deniers' who haven't yet met the self revealing God. (Or am I being too simplistic)?

Jn 3: 5 - 8 "Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
(page   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10   11)

NOTICE: - The 'Response' facility on most articles is restricted to CT site members. Site members should login here. Comments/questions from non-site members should be sent to the Editor by e-mail.


Christians Together in the Highlands and Islands > Archive > Around the Region > Wider News > Richard Dawkins' Delusion about God