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God's purposes in Israel?


A recently-produced film 'With God On Our Side' dealing with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is currently being shown internationally.
A video recording was made of meetings in Dundee, and scenes are now to be given the first public showing in the Highlands with discussion following.
 

 

 

What does God's word say about modern-day Israel and Jews

 

First public showing of a new video to discuss

the controversial film With God On Our Side

   

North Kessock Mission Hall

7.30pm Friday, 18 February 2011


Film showing to Dundee audience
Dundee ConferenceA TWO-DAY event in Dundee in November last year saw an Anglican Minister and a American Pentecostal film-maker present a new and controversial film entitled With God On Our Side.

The subject matter was the Israel/Palestinian conflict and Rev. Dr. Stephen Sizer – an Anglican clergyman – along with the film's producer Porter Speakman showed the film and addressed the gatherings from both a political and a theological perspective.

A full showing of the film which questions how Christians should regard the modern state of Israel and the Jewish people was screened in a Dundee hotel to an audience drawn from the general public. On the following day an extract was shown to a group of Christians in a Dundee church: this was followed by a presentation, 'Bible Study' and interactive discussion.

With a view to disseminating these meetings to a wider audience, Nairn-based Thistle Channel TV recorded the events on camera, and as a ‘first showing’ there is now a chance to view an edited version of the video and engage on subsequent discussion on the Bible’s view of Israel and God’s purposes. The showing will include (with permission obtained) an extract of the film 'With God On Our Side'.

Yachad headerIn attendance at the showing will be members of a Scottish group called Yachad which has a strong interest in the Israel/Palestine situation.


The following extract shows two scenes from:-
  • a public showing of the full film With God on Our Side and
  • the subsequent short showing and following 'Bible Study' in St. Peter’s Church, Dundee

 Dundee film showing and subsequent interactive Bible Study 

Click on arrow above to start video playing.

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Seating is limited so if you wish to attend this meeting please -

e-mail esther414@btinternet.com

and give your Name, Tel. No. and Number of Seats required.

 
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Bible StudyTake your Bible: to check out God's Word regarding what He says on the subject.

Some resources will be available at no charge and there will also be opportunity to purchase books and DVDs on the subject of God's dealings with Israel and the Jewish people.

Thistle ChannelThere is no charge for this event but an offering will be uplifted as a contribution to the costs of gathering the material and bringing it to you.


Kessock Mission Hall, North Kessock, by Inverness
North Kessock Mission Hall   Return to top of page

The Mission Hall is situated on the shoreline around 300 yards beyond the North Kessock Hotel and just behind the Dolphin viewpoint and the car-turning area.

Car parking is available on the street and also opposite the hotel.

Post Code for Sat. Nav.

IV1 3XN
 Mission Hall, Main Street, North Kessock 




Thistle Channel TV, 03/02/2011

Feedback:
(page   1   2   3   4)
Martin Lisemore 17/02/2011 11:56
John, I'm not pitching at you in what I wrote in particular.

My post, above, is the result of much reading, online and off, and discussions, which yield the thought, we think more highly of ourselves than we should.

I agree with you, Christian Zionism can be dangerous. But not when it is led by the Holy Spirit.

I believe much of the poverty and degradation in Israel now among many who have made alliya is the result of mega churches and mega ministries getting on the band wagon. Too often migrants are dumped in Israel without the necessary support to build a life.

I was involved with Christian Zionism for several years, with a very good ministry, unfortunately now usurped by other forces. We operated a complete package, education, healthcare, homes, jobs, for those we helped make alliya. This is not true of so many organisations on the band wagon.

I stand to be shot down here, but I believe, when Christianity or one of it's ministries or parts becomes a populist movement, with an easy populist theology, it is already wrong. The Holy Spirit has taken His hand off.

Awful generalisms throughout, I know, but this is a very big subject.


John Wilson (Guest) 17/02/2011 12:49
Don't worry Martin I wasn't alluding to your statement either. Because I focused in on injustices and oppression and have expressed strong concerns over Christian Zionism, I've perhaps given the wrong impression that I am somehow anti-Israel which is not true.
My statement of Christian Zionism being an evil and politically charged movement was a bit strong.
I can see why many individuals would want to bless Israel by helping them get back to their homeland.
I agree with almost all of what Leo has said in his post. What gives me cause for concern are the general disregard and bad attitude of Christians towards the welfare of Palestinians and Arabs in that Land. Just because the land doesn't belong to them, doesn't mean we shouldn't care for their welfare and treatment.

My other concern are the following quotes from a prominent Christian Zionist (millionaire) preacher/ leader with huge political influence over leaders and Christians.
“If a Christian admits “I believe the Bible”, I can make him a pro-Israel supporter or they will have to denounce their faith. So I have Christians over a barrel you might say.”
And
“it is time for America to consider a military pre emptive military strike against Iran to prevent a nuclear holocaust in Israel” to the sound of roaring rapturous applause and cheers.

http://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2007/12/19/video-john-hagee-calls-for-a-preemptive-strike-on-iran/
-John Hagee

If there ever comes a day when the world is forced to strike Iran it should be met with sadness and many tears. Not applauding and cheers.

Iran is a threat to Israel and the world and Israel will inherit the promised land that is currently occupied by Iranians. But it's very dangerous to try and take Gods promises to abraham into our own hands and force them through. Abraham and Sarah did this and Ishmael was the result.

Martin Lisemore 17/02/2011 13:21
John, I don't know much about Hagee, I have him classed as a mega ministry, which means to me a prophet of bucks and not much else. But that may be unjust.

It is just this kind of aggressive Bible twisting which has given many movements of the Holy Spirit a bad name, and I believe He withdraws then. The Charismatic movement is another example where excesses and satanic messages have been widely preached. Yet there seems always to be a niche, or three, where the Holy Spirit remains, to carry out the work He has begun.

Under no circumstances would I condone, applaud or support a pre-emptive strike against Iran, or anywhere else. Superficially this is getting back to the Mutually Assured Destruction of the Cold War era. Not something I want to live through again.

The Israeli's are quite capable to sorting out this mess themselves. 1981, Saddam Hussein threatened Israel with developing nuclear weapons at Osirak in Iraq. The Israelis took out that plant before it could produce weapons.

' But it's very dangerous to try and take Gods promises to abraham into our own hands and force them through.'

Such wisdom should be at the heart of every ministry, church, fellowship, house group etc., but regretfully it seldom is. I could easily say this is the main plank of my earlier statement about Christian Zionism and mega ministries. They forcing the issue of alliya. Even when the Children of Israel entered the Promised Land, they were told they couldn't have it all in one go, because it couldn't bear them.

Your quotes from John Hagee say to me something other than the Holy Spirit is at work there. This is intimidation, it's manipulation neither of which are condoned in the Bible.

I remain at heart a Christian Zionist, and all that means. I still support a small charity in England which carries on with the 'whole package,' outlined above.
Martin Lisemore 17/02/2011 13:25
I should add to my post above, both Christian Zionist ministries I've supported also work, almost equally, but in different ways, for the Palestinian.


Pawlo 17/02/2011 14:45
John,

To rebuke is not to curse, if you are rebuked you are not cursed or hated. Where you get this thinking from is beyond me.
God is incapable of anti-semitism, again here you seem confused as to rebuke and curse.

As for replacementism, much of what the western church teach is thinly veiled replacementism. John Piper is a case in point.

Palistine and Palastinian are political terms designed to destabilise and delegitimise Israels right to exist. The palistinian people are far worse off under their own govenance than under Israels. I know Arab Christians who are pro-Israel, I know Palistinian Christians who are opposed to Israel.

Israel is not the evil movement here, however they are no doubt sometimes misguided. They have all the worst characteristics and habits of the West which is our fault and are where they are because of disobediance not faithfulness to God. They are heading for the time of Jacobs trouble which is no picnic in the Promised Land!

I am sorry John if you feel I have been too harsh or critical of what you wrote but I stand by it, even if that leads you to think ill of me. I feel this subject is the make or break for most of the western church.

With regard to John Hagee, I would agree with Martin, Hagee is full of Western pride and arrogance.
Editor 17/02/2011 16:40
Sometimes what the media doesn't publish says as much as the copy which it does print.
The following was sent as a letter to The Times within the last week but it has not been published.

"William Hague and Israel's belligerence"

Sir,

A few weeks ago I quipped to a friend that, somehow or other, a way would be found to lay the blame on Israel for all the upheaval in the Middle East.

Your screaming headline ("Hague tells 'belligerent' Israelis to soften line", Feb 9)) did not, therefore, come as any surprise.

The Foreign Minister has, most unworthily, latched on to the age-old scapegoat and, single-handedly, fanned the Middle Eastern flames and further encouraged Israel's enemies.

At a time of widespread conflict all around the Middle East, and with so many victims of state brutality, the mind of our Foreign Minister is focused primarily upon "the belligerent language" of Israel's Prime Minister!

He also takes exception to the latter's quite legitimate call to his people to "prepare for any outcome" and his vow to "reinforce the might of the State of Israel".

Given the political maelstrom surrounding Israel, any Prime Minister who did not take such measures would surely be remiss in his duty.

The sooner the popular, yet bitterly misleading and ironic, references to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as 'The Middle East conflict' or 'The Middle East peace process', are discarded, the better it will be.

They are a disingenuous diversion, whose objective is to obfuscate the true source of all the wider 'Middle Eastern' problems, a source that lies at the heart of the demonstrations in Tunisia and Egypt.

Dr Jeffrey M Cohen
London, N2
------------------------
Ed footnote:

Ultimately Dr. Cohen is both right and wrong. In secular terms he is right. The problem is not what is happening in Israel because what is happening in Israel is a result of the surrounding nations which believe that Israel should not exist.

However he is wrong (in spiritual terms) in believing that Israel is not at the heart of it all. Joel chapter 3 and the last three chapters of Zechariah's prophecy tell it all.

John Wilson (Guest) 18/02/2011 00:17
“To rebuke is not to curse, if you are rebuked you are not cursed or hated. “

That was my point all along, exactly, finally you get it!
“where you get this idea from is beyond me”

Paul, either you failed to see the irony in my question, I have
not made it clear enough, or your continuing to misrepresent what I said. How could you possibly conclude from the context of the question that I’m affirming that Moses was cursed. That’s completely false, on the contrary, the answer to the question was obviously no and was absolutely plain from the context in which it was given: which was the misapplication of “I will bless those who bless you and curse him who dishonours you.” By some preachers as a tool of manipulation in unconditionally supporting what I believed to be a political movement.

I was begging the question in order to demonstrate that just because someone does not unconditionally support this movement but rather speaks out against the injustices and oppressions inflicted on Palestinians or whatever term you want to use does not mean they are cursed by God.

I will leave it there for now, I have plenty to think about. In light of martins posts I regret my insensitive comment of Generalisation that Christian Zionism was an evil politically charged movement.

Martin Lisemore 18/02/2011 09:16
John, there is absolutely no need for regret.

Most anything connected with Israel and the Western Church/media gets distorted, deliberately, to appease political and religious interests. Once people get on the populist bandwagon then corruption has already set in. Public opinion is swayed by less than truthful reporting, and the rumour mill, too often led from the pulpit, deliberately fuels the misconception. Colin is right, what the media doesn't report is often more eloquent than what it does report.

Your perception that Christian Zionism is an evil, politically charged movement is actually spot on, now. But it wasn't always the case, until the prophets of bucks got rowed in, seemingly to their own personal benefit.

I'll make my contact details publicly available for a few days. Please do email me, John, a correspondence conducted in the love of Jesus would be a blessing to us both.
Pawlo 18/02/2011 12:37
John you say,

I was begging the question in order to demonstrate that just because someone does not unconditionally support this movement but rather speaks out against the injustices and oppressions inflicted on Palestinians or whatever term you want to use does not mean they are cursed by God.

If a believer or organisation questions the right for Israel to exist in the Holy Land and alines themselves with a cause that wishes to divide the land or remove the Jews comletely, then I say that they are biblically and prophetically incompetant and fail to understand the times in which we live.

People like Sizer, Warren, Piper and Blair are the kind of 'christians' who will be instrumental in building a false peace which leads to the destruction of more than just Israel.
They are naive when it comes to their dealing with the Palastinians and the Arab nations and are used as leverage by a violent but cunning enemy, mostly because they are ignorant and/or dismissive of biblical prophesy.

I still can't make sense of your comments on Moses being cursed or not and God being anti-semitic or not, in light of who they are. Maybe I have misunderstood you but I have only commented on what I understood you to be saying.

We are only where we are because of Israels transgression and only the proud and ignorant lord it over them. Britain, America and the West in general are and always have been as bad as Israel, but the Islamic nations are and will be far worse, dispite what the media or pseudo-christians say.
Editor 15/03/2012 15:42
"Israel is 'apartheid'". German chancellor hopeful Sigmar Gabriel (14/03/12)

http://www.jpost.com/JewishWorld/JewishNews/Article.aspx?ID=261998&R=R1

"Israel will exist until and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it..."
Hamas Charter (1988).

"The Jews are a Cancer on the breast of Germany."
Adolph Hitler (1920)

"[ The Jews are a ] base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth".
Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies (1543)
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Christians Together in the Highlands and Islands > Esther 414 > God's purposes in Israel?