Debates (Open), Christians Together

Pastorless Churches

Sat, 16 Mar 2013 11:18:54 GMT

I am seeing a trend in many churches when their pastor leave not to fill the vacancy but rather appoint the lay leadership to fill the gap. Has anyone else noticed this trend?

Topic started by Andrew Moore

4 replies. Last reply from John Miller on 16/03/2013 11:18

Looking for a church ...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 10:47:04 GMT

Hi,
I am living in Inverness area. I am living here about year. I am 22 years young and wanna found a nice church. Maybe someone can suggest any to me?

Topic started by ChristianLV

4 replies. Last reply from John Miller on 15/01/2013 10:47

Relationships in the church and with the world

Thu, 13 Dec 2012 21:08:27 GMT

A questionner quoted a statement on another thread:
"There can be no Christian fellowship with the unsaved"

And then posed the following questions in relation to that.

>>>>
Isn't that hyper-calvinism? Unsaved not welcome?

So people who are adherants rather than communicants are to what? sit at the back? Not to talk to them?

Apartheid church anyone?
<<<<<

There are two terms which need to be defined because they are widely misunderstood and accordingly misused to confusing effect.

The 'church' (in the true sense) consists exclusively of those who have a personal saving faith in Jesus Christ and are 'born again' into a new life of direct relationship with God. The process can sometimes be very dramatic and immediately discernible (cf Paul on the Damascus Road), but it doesn't always happen that way.

What must happen is 'repentance' (turning away from all the God defines as sin) and relinquishing the 'throne' of one's life to Christ and to God and His Word. Baptism is an act of public witness to that life change; but the change should also be evident in the ongoing life of the person concerned.
It is this process that brings a person into the church (meaning the body of Christ comprising of other believers).

Going into a church building no more makes one a Christian than going into MacDonalds makes one a hamburger. Neither does church attendance, good works, infant christening, name on a church roll.

Now to the word 'fellowship'.
'Fellowship' is not just a churchy word for 'friendship'. It is a relationship that can only be experienced amongst those who are truly born again by the Spirit of God.

The terms 'communicant member' and 'adherent' are invented terms to describe those who take communion and those who don't. But these things can never be used to define the spiritual condition of any one person.

Regarding the question of 'Apartheid Church'. Yes, the church as the body of Christ is a discrete entity and cannot properly contain unbelievers.
However because the institutional church has viewed the first step in 'evangelism' (outreach to the lost with the Gospel) as being 'get them into a building' there are many within the walls of church buildings who are not members of the body of Christ (including, if words and actions are anything to go by, ministers in pulpits). 'By their fruits you will know them'.

And this (quite possibly) is the reason that there is so much confusion and division within local churches and denominations.

The Bible tells us of course that tares will grow amongst the wheat, but this verse does not give licence to the planting of tares in the wheat field. (That's the work of Satan and should be no work of the church.)

I hope that helps.

Topic started by Editor

2 replies. Last reply from Jenny on 13/12/2012 21:08

God's guidance

Sun, 23 Sep 2012 20:05:27 GMT

The voice of God is - in the most fundamental sense - found in His Word and by His Spirit.
But in daily decision-making and leading, how does a believer (or group of believers) find the perfect will of God in any one situation? (And which side is God on when the vote is split?)

Topic started by Editor

13 replies. Last reply from Smartfone (Guest) on 23/09/2012 20:05

Prayer meetings: is there a problem

Sat, 16 Jun 2012 14:27:14 GMT

It is a common observation (made again recently on another thread) that the numbers coming to prayer meetings are often very markedly less than those attending Sunday morning services.

Is there a problem here?

Topic started by Editor

22 replies. Last reply from Mary Fennell on 16/06/2012 14:27

Discipleship

Fri, 15 Jun 2012 20:10:22 GMT

Jesus said to his first followers to "go and make disciples of all nations".

What are the implications and how well is it being done in terms of bringing to maturity those who have professed faith?

Topic started by Editor

16 replies. Last reply from B. Lever (Guest) on 15/06/2012 20:10

Betrayal - The Deadliest Attack

Thu, 26 Apr 2012 16:26:43 GMT

Recently two apparently unconnected events were reported in the media. One was a letter to The Times written by a handful of Church of England Bishops. The other was an interview of Nadine Dorries by the BBC for a television programme.

The first was an attack on the universally accepted definition of marriage by men whose covenanted declaration of Christian faith at ordination should have precluded such scribbling. The second was an expression of contempt by a Conservative MP for the leaders of her party. She described the Prime Minister and his Chancellor as “posh boys who don’t know the price of milk”

What is the connection of two apparently disparate outbursts that generated controversy and debate of varying intensity? Betrayal! Mrs Dorries will be seen by some as having stepped over a line that will forever brand her as a traitor. Others will applaud her candour, praising such a rare and devastatingly honest appraisal of what she perceives to be the deeply flawed leadership of her party. The question now is what will be the result of her somewhat shrill denunciation of Cameron and his sidekick? Will the party unite in their defence or will “Mad Nad’s” head be the first of many to appear above treachery’s parapet? Will the longer-term result be a weakening of the party or will all good men (and women) come to its aid?

In the ecclesiastical matter it is the “posh boys” who are the traitors. They are the ones who have no idea of value, but their foul betrayal of the Christian faith has nothing to do with anything so mundane as the price of milk. Their collective act of treachery has its roots in utter disregard for an infinitely greater price paid nearly two thousand years ago at a place called Calvary. There, God measured the price of man’s salvation from the guilt, power and penalty of sin as the cost of the precious blood of His Son.

All who dare to call themselves Christian must stand by that valuation. The atoning sacrifice of Christ’s death and the victory of His resurrection constitute the rock on which Christianity stands. Biblical teaching, Christian doctrine and the manner of a Christian’s life must be in agreement with its profound and eternal message for humanity.

These posh Bishops strut their stuff, arrayed in the religious bling of their ceremonial finery that would feed needy families for months, whether in the poverty of inner city Britain or a famine-ravaged part of some repressed African state. In stark contrast to their professed Master who had nowhere to lay His head, they live in palaces of sumptuous grandeur and elegance. If they ever claimed to have visited the cross of Christ in a journey of personal repentance and faith, witnessing for themselves God’s righteousness and love meeting there to make salvation available to all, they have long since abandoned the pretence.

They commend a lifestyle that God’s word condemns. They go further! They advocate the redefinition of marriage, contradicting the Holy Scriptures whose sacred truth they covenanted to uphold, by deliberately transposing the Bible’s definition of love with lust.

Those who are not Christians may strongly disagree. I understand that but their beliefs are not my concern. The lordly Bishops are another matter. They attack the church from within and weaken its testimony to those of other faiths, or no faith. The denomination in which they shelter, nurturing their heresies, should discipline them, as is its duty. If such a proposition meets with hierarchal refusal individual members of that church should separate from the apostasy.

Faithful followers of Christ must examine themselves and their chosen fellowship in constant vigilance against such a spirit of betrayal. The Christian church in its biblically defined status has survived and prospered for nearly two thousand years and will do so as long as God leaves it here. In its history, persecution and ridicule from those who reject Christ as God’s only offer of eternal salvation have always encouraged prosperity, growth and revival, but the spirit of Judas the arch-betrayer is an ever present threat. It has sought out the comfort of the Bishops’ palaces and taken up residence there. The Church of England is not its only lodging place. The threat of a Jenny Geddes-like protest may still deter episcopalianism but the betrayal of the faith of Christ has appeared in both the public assemblages as well as the secret cabals of Scotland’s Kirk. The same virus of betrayal, the same deadly intent to attack from within has made its malign presence felt. Any who acquiesce in such treachery, stubbornly refusing to condemn its prevarication, even by the act of remaining silent should consider the solemn facts. When Jesus addressed Judas for the last time he called him “my friend” but previously had described him as a devil. What he was outwardly belied the evil that was within his heart. Tormented by remorse without repentance, his end was violent and self-inflicted.

Topic started by John Miller

1 replies. Last reply from on 26/04/2012 16:26

Ritual, Racket or Reality?

Wed, 11 Apr 2012 17:59:07 GMT

Easter - Ritual, Racket or Reality?

Do you know that the Bible does not suggest that Christians hold an annual festival called Easter? Do you know that the Bible does not teach that Christians celebrate any holy event relating to Christian belief, on a "calendar" basis?

I do not ask these questions to suggest that there is anything wrong in celebrating either the birth or the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the one Head of the church. The challenge is simply this, is it mere ritual, is it participation in a commercial racket or does any involvement you have in a Christian celebration of Easter affirm a deeply held conviction of personal belief in the person of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection?

Nearly two thousand years ago in a small middle-eastern country something occurred over a weekend that has had a more profound effect on world history than any other event. A man called Jesus, betrayed by a close friend and follower, was falsely accused of crimes that he did not commit. He was subjected to a mockery of a trial and convicted on the basis of blatant perjury. He was publicly humiliated, tortured and stripped naked before being nailed to a wooden cross. His tormenters continued their abuse even as He hung there in agony.

His reaction was to pray for their forgiveness. He even had time to bring peace and salvation to one of the criminals between whom He was crucified. He hung there for six hours. During the first three he was mercilessly exposed to a jeering audience of religious leaders, Roman soldiers and a noisy rabble who only a few days earlier had hailed Him as King. In the second three hours Almighty God drew a curtain of darkness over the scene and His word tells us solemnly that this sufferer was “made sin”. During that time He suffered for the sins of all mankind.

At the end, when He had given up His spirit, the testimony of the Roman centurion guarding the execution was “Truly this was the Son of God”. To verify His death a Roman soldier thrust his spear up into his lifeless body and blood and water flowed forth. He was buried in a borrowed tomb and the scriptural record tells us that after three days He rose physically from the grave.

The dying thief had no doubt of His deity, nor did that tough, battle-hardened Roman officer. If you profess Christianity do you have the same absolute conviction? As you participate in some form of Christian worship this coming weekend will it be ritual, racket or reality? In other words, is it an outward observance of a religious ritual, the enjoyment of Easter Eggs and a slap-up meal, or the sober reality of self-examination as to how you stand in relation to the Risen Christ?

Some foolish clerics insist on spiritualising the concept of resurrection. Some even deny that it ever happened. Scripture says that to those who are wise in their own eyes, the whole story of the cross and subsequent events is foolishness. It warns that to religious folk, who depend on their own self-righteousness it is actually offensive because it shuts out the idea that good works can persuade God to forgive the sinner. It proclaims that faith in Jesus Christ alone is his way back to God.

Finally, consider this. The Bible tells us plainly that if Christ was not raised from the dead there is no hope of eternal salvation for anyone, and that those who do believe on Him are the most miserable people in the world. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father except by me.” He died for our sins. In His resurrection God accepted that immense sacrifice and guaranteed eternal justification for those who believe on Him, but mark this – only those who believe on Him! Scripture says, "He bore the sins of Many." Are you among the many?

This weekend, ask yourself the question – Ritual, Racket or Reality?

Topic started by John Miller

14 replies. Last reply from John Miller on 11/04/2012 17:59

The 'elephant in the room'...

Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:38:03 GMT

The 'elephant in the room' is a common saying for an issue that is evident but is being keenly ignored, side stepped, avoided etc. We all have them, at home, work and yes even at church!

The problem with the church elephant(s) is the biblical reasons why they should be dealt with, but are not!

What is/are your elephant(s) church wise, and how should it/they be dealt with biblically?

A big elephant in church is a refusal to forgive, despite God's Word clearly stating; "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." (Eph 4: 32).

A second question is: What is likely to happen if we continue to ignore the elephant(s)?

Topic started by Peter Carr

53 replies. Last reply from Editor on 20/02/2012 17:38

Wide spread corruption, where is the voice of the church in all of this?

Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:49:22 GMT

I would have thought that with all that is going on just now with wide spread corruption etc in significant areas of society, i.e. press, police, politics etc, that the church would have a great opportunity to speak out for The Lord?

Surley this an ideal opportunity to explain from God's perspective why our nation is in such a mess?

The simple fact is that this is what happens when a nation turns it back on the Living God!!

Jn 1: 14

Topic started by Peter Carr

20 replies. Last reply from John Miller on 25/01/2012 10:49

Has Sir Cliff lost the Christian plot?

Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:51:01 GMT

The TV (ITV 3) are celebrating 50 years of Sir Cliff Richard in show biz. But from a Christian perspective has this once ambassador for Christ lost the reality of the Christian faith, or is it simply another sad case of compromise?

It was revealed in the press (see below) that Sir Cliff and his sister have a suicide pact, and that he also supports gay marriage.

"'I have a death pact with my sister': Sir Cliff Richard reveals they have agreed suicide if they get dementia like their mother
'I don't want to be a burden on anybody else'

70-year-old singer backs gay marriages"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2049732/Sir-Cliff-Richard-reveals-sister-suicide-pact-dementia-like-mother.html#ixzz1jBWSmd7L

Topic started by Peter Carr

36 replies. Last reply from Peter Carr on 18/01/2012 17:51

Room for reflection?

Fri, 13 Jan 2012 20:52:39 GMT

How do you reflect on what you are fed from God's word Sunday by Sunday? Do you reflect? Do you take notes during the sermon, if not how do you retain what is said from the pulpit? Do you retain it?

These are questions that I have often visited and revisited since becoming a Christian 14 years ago. I am thankful that my fisrt pastor encouraged me to take notes during the sermon from the very early days that I became a Christian.

Is it possible that the reason that we see so little growth in our lives is due to a lack of refection on God's word? Do we, like the society in which we live, simply move from one thing to the next without learning as we go?

Do we simply see the sermon as something that has to be endured as part of the service, without the realisation that God is actually likely to speak directly to us through it?

If this is how we are dealing with His word on a Sunday, is it likely that we will do the same on a daily basis also?

Is Christian growth, individually and collectively directly linked to reflecting on God's word? I belive that it is, as we hear, reflect and pray, we open ourselves to change that God can and will bring about by His Spirit, but we have to play our part!

Any thought?

Topic started by Peter Carr

52 replies. Last reply from John Miller on 13/01/2012 20:52

Who do we believe..?

Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:44:15 GMT

Who do we believe, God and His Word, or men and their interpretation?

Or the subtle dangers of being pc (politically correct), instead of BC (Biblically Correct)!!

A RC priest, President Bush and Billy Graham all deny Salvation is through Christ alone (as revealed in Scripture)!! Despite the words of Jesus Himself in Jn 14: 6 "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXEvmFt1C3Q&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4iVbqCIYPo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgkZN1cxnGo&feature=related

Topic started by Peter Carr

87 replies. Last reply from Jenny on 04/01/2012 16:44

Living with the Amish

Sat, 31 Dec 2011 22:05:40 GMT

(With Christmas just around the corner, how about a gentler discussion between now and early Jan?).

Has anyone been watching 'Living with the Amish' (Ch 4)? If so, what, if anything, can we as Christians learn from their simple way of life?

Also, do you think that it will inspire people of faith (or none) to turn to a simpler way of life? If so, what will be the benefits for those who choose to do so?

Topic started by Peter Carr

59 replies. Last reply from Peter Carr on 31/12/2011 22:05

Prime Minister rebuts Dawkins’ faith school attack

Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:18:23 GMT

Prof Dawkins asked the Prime Minister: “Why do you support faith schools for children who are too young to have chosen their faith, thereby implicitly labelling them with the faith of their parents, whereas you wouldn’t dream of so labelling a ‘Keynesian child’ or a ‘Conservative child’?”.

Mr Cameron responded: “Comparing John Maynard Keynes to Jesus Christ shows, in my view, why Richard Dawkins just doesn’t really get it.

http://www.christian.org.uk/news/prime-minister-rebuts-dawkins-faith-school-attack/?e021212

Topic started by Peter Carr

86 replies. Last reply from Seumas, Tobermory (Guest) on 24/12/2011 10:18

Authorship of Hebrews

Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:38:21 GMT

The following messages have been transferred from another thread (in order to keep the latter 'on topic'). This new thread has been created to discuss the authorship of the letter to the Hebrews and includes the relevant postings (copied from the original source).

Martin Lisemore wrote:
"Heb 10:31, yes, it's one of the first Bible passages I learned forty odd years ago. And yes, the writer to Hebrews is absolutely correct (James I think).

Christopher Hitchens, yes, well, he joined a growing commercial band wagon some years ago, atheism. He says of himself, he is (was) a writer. So was I for twenty eight years, part time, but didn't give into the commercial pressures to write what cheap, low end editors wanted. Hitchens did, but his brother is another matter.

Now I may not always agree with his brother Peter, but, according to his self edited page on wikipedia, he has a profound faith in Jesus Christ. For me that's a good starting point. For me the sadness is he's Church of England. Could do better old boy!

Murder, oh, that's a difficult one Biblically. I need to confess I don't yet understand the position of our God on murder aside from the Ten Commandments.

Cain murdered Abel, and died spiritually, David effectively murdered Uriah the Hittite, and got away with it, well at least he wasn't struck down, but it needs to be said David was no ordinary man. Filled with the Holy Spirit from aged seven!

In another time Paul got away with it too!

In the light of Esau and Judas, it comes down to where the heart is. Esau for a bowl of food and Judas for a few quid. As the Bible says, God judges the heart.

------------

John Miller replied:

"Martin, you raise some interesting points. I would be very keen to know why you ascribe authorship of Hebrews to James. To which James do you refer? While I would not advise any believer to join the C of E, there are many of the Lord's people in that denomination as in for instance the C of S. I believe that the position of God on murder is abundantly clear in many passages of scripture. As in the case of all sin, murder can be forgiven in the sight of God through faith in Christ. Man's lawful judgement is another matter. David didn't "get away with it" and neither did Paul, as far as I can see. David lost a son as a direct result and God's hand was heavy upon him. Paul was shown by the Lord "how much he would suffer in My name" and this was certainly born out by later events ending in martyrdom. Esau despised his birthright but Judas, the son of perdition, despised the Son of God, fulfilling the strange but unerring prophecy of scripture. Interesting thoughts indeed!
-------

Martin then responded:

John, I was being a little flippant earlier, probably a release valve for having nine Windows laptops and three Apple computers going at the same time, all demanding attention. By the way, the nine lap tops are in for repair, they're not mine! Now add three Border Collies and two grand children plus wife! A cosy mayhem ensues.

Authorship of Hebrews, well, there are several opinions here. For myself, I read James, the Apostle James, in the KJV, and had a go in Greek, some years ago. The literary style and word usage seems to be so similar, while Paul, to whom Hebrews is often ascribed, seem to be out of synch with the style of Hebrews. There's also the theological content which is aimed more at Messianic Jews than Gentiles in that it assumes certain prior knowledge of Judaism which Paul doesn't in his letters to the Gentile Church.

But no one could be pedantic about the authorship, it's just my opinion.

As far as no place for redemption is concerned, I've never heard this preached or taught. It's something I found for myself. Actually, I think teaching on this would render many of the adherents to Christianity panic stricken, or maybe not!

Topic started by Editor

12 replies. Last reply from Pawlo (Guest) on 20/12/2011 12:38

Persecution of Christians

Sun, 09 Oct 2011 23:15:27 GMT

Rev George Hargreaves of the Christian Party stated on yesterday morning's Sunday Morning Live (BBC1), that persecution of Christians in the UK is akin to the persecution that the Jews suffered!!

Like me, and countless other Christians, he undoubtedly has full access to the whole counsel of God, in which case his reading of the NT should tell him that persecution comes with the territory for every Christian in every age and is unavoidable. Therefore, making such a comparison is futile and only brings the Church into disrepute.

I suggest that he looks to China etc if he wants to see what real persection looks like.

Topic started by Peter Carr

38 replies. Last reply from Martin Lisemore on 09/10/2011 23:15

Their god is their stomach

Sun, 09 Oct 2011 22:51:36 GMT

There seems to be an increasing glut of tv programmes which relate to money, how to accumulate it, win it or invest it for the best return...food how to cook it to impress at dinner parties etc...and programmes relating to buying and selling houses, refurbishing etc.

What does this say about the society in which we live, and where will it all end?

Ph 3" as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things."

Topic started by Peter Carr

3 replies. Last reply from Martin Lisemore on 09/10/2011 22:51

The increasing dangers of so called internet church!!

Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:26:34 GMT

The increasing dangers of so called internet church!!

http://celebrity.aol.co.uk/2011/08/30/russell-brand-minister/

Topic started by Peter Carr

17 replies. Last reply from Peter Carr on 14/09/2011 12:26

Local church within denomination

Fri, 26 Aug 2011 22:21:53 GMT

This is the first in a series of questions posed by a member of a Church of Scotland congregation. The person concerned would value any views on the matter in the context of the CofS (as a denomination) having moved away from God's standards and Truth.

Question: Is it scriptural to think of a local C of S church as able to remain a Gospel church , independently of the C of S as a whole?

Topic started by Editor

23 replies. Last reply from Jenny on 26/08/2011 22:21