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Pawlo (27/12/2010 21:54)
You speak of doing a Saul/Paul, but if this is to happen (and I pray it does) then you will have surprisingly little to do with it, it will be done for you.
Please look again at Stephens ministry, it is one of the greatest in the new testament, though only small in appearance, it was one of the most powerful. This is why Paul speaks of his abnormal birth.
Our job as believers is to metaphorically remove the stone from the front of the tombs so that the light of Christ might shine into the darkness, so that those bound by the the garments of the death of this world might be raised and come forth into the true light. (which no flesh can see)
I know that it may frustrate you, with regards evolution and science but Saul never denied the creator and the biblical account, and this is key also to a true faith. If you deny God as creator then He can create nothing truthful in you. Again I would say take a fresh look at creation.
Please don't stop posting on here, I don't say this to patronise you, you are clearly an intelligent man. It is never bad to discuss opposing views.
Martin Lisemore (27/12/2010 23:39)
Andrea, your analogy of the Holocaust is so very accurate.
I lost family in the Holocaust, albeit distant family.
My head of Science at school, a very big man with a big personality, a very strong military disciplinarian, as I can testify, was the first British NCO (Warrant Officer First Class) into Belsen. On our last day of school, after six years, he invited us to ask questions, personal questions, of him. I took the floor, asked, and watched this enormous man bow down and weep in memory of what he had witnessed. It was the first time in twenty odd years he had addressed his memories.
I wept with him, not knowing why.
I've since been to Auschwitz twice. My family died there. It is true, there are birds, but they don't sing. Twenty miles away they do!
I stood a mile from Auschwitz and dug my hands in the soil, to find ashes of flesh. The Poles call it fertiliser. It's Jews etc.
I've taught my step children and step grand children the truth of what happened in the Holocaust.
The Jewish community in Europe lost two thirds of it's numbers in four years.
So why am I writing this? It's simple. Truth will always out. Christ deniers, holocaust deniers, whatever, are like chaff blown in the wind. Of no account. They get headlines, a newspaper payoff and are gone, for an eternity. They have their followers, chaff and wind. Google John Allegro.
The truth of the Holocaust stands; the truth of Jesus stands, no matter what is said about Him. The Holocaust is an eternal event for the Jewish people. Jesus is an eternal person for all men and for all time. Never to change.
The truth may be lost in the sands of time, or altered and deformed but it never ceases to be truth. It stands eternally.
Roland, you will doubtless say, yes, but, if, and maybe. Yet if that is your answer, you must somehow account also for six million Jews, two million Russians, a million Poles, and half a million homosexuals who also perished at that time. Not to mention the criminally insane, (so called) and Gypses etc.,
You must somehow also account for the fact a Biblical Christianity has survived through two thousand years of persecution, adulteration, denial, and Catholicism; that the Bible has been delivered in tact to us, some of it from the time of Moses three and a half thousand years ago. A time when your ancestors where cleaving stones and wandering around with clubs and mine ... well, another time perhaps.
How is it this Book, the Bible, has been delivered to us, in tact? I think this demands an answer in view of some your your past posts.
Tell me, Roland, do you expect in a score of years, not even an hundred, some of the authors you espouse, will be remembered, quoted, revered? I don't think so! They will be as nothing, as sands in the desert.
Truth stands. Like Andrea I don't have all the answers. But I have enough.
Gladatorial combat has been engaged, and that before the year end! I welcome it, and you.
Please, Roland, do tell us, before you engage any more, what is a disbeliever. I've searched the OED, and online, and think you are not what you say. Would you explain please?
Without such an explanation, further posts will be invalid.
I refer you to my blessing of Christmas Eve ... take good care my friend.
Alan French (Guest) (28/12/2010 17:18) I have been following this debate with some interest but am puzzled by ML's query regarding 'disbeliever'. He also seems to believe, why I do not know, that RF denies the holocaust. Very puzzling.Nonsensical actually.
Martin Lisemore (28/12/2010 19:49)
Alan, look at many of Roland's posts in the past, and you will see he denies the accuracy, and authenticity of the Bible, and is a Holocaust denier.
Nonsensical? You should walk in my shoes, my friend.
Penny Lee (28/12/2010 20:29)
To be fair, I don't take from Roland's posts that he is denying the holocaust. It is my understanding that he misconstrued the reason why I referred to it. It appeared that he thought I was comparing the ridiculous denial of the holocaust despite all the evidence to a denial of God for whom he believes there is no credible evidence. This was not what I was inferring - I was suggesting that a holocaust denial would not be seen as ridiculous in a few hundred years time - wrong, yes - but not necessarily able to be proven otherwise. Why should people believe it once all the present filmed evidence is gone? Even if written evidence remains, this may well be regarded as fiction or an attempt to discredit the enemy. Is this not what is happening today with the Bible and its portrayal of who Jesus was and His purpose while here on earth?
Martin Lisemore (28/12/2010 20:35)
Andrea, you are correct. Please forgive me, I get heated about this subject; it's very personal, and ever present.
Brian Ross (28/12/2010 22:33)
Hi, again, Roland (if you are persevering with us!!)
I merely wish to add that my 'take' on Andrea's ref to the Holocaust was exactly as she has clarified it for Martin. Evidence such as the Magdalen fragments confirm that there was at least one Gospel record written within the lifetime of eyewitnesses.
It is, I would submit, much more difficult to get away with a fabrication when there are still folk around who are in a position to categorically deny one's story. The fact that the only people who wished to deny the resurrection (for example) were those who had most to fear if it were true, says a lot.
On the subject of the resurrection, please take time to consider that even the enemies of Jesus did not deny the emptiness of the tomb; and check out each of the alternative explanations that have been produced in the last 2,000 years (almost!). There is only one that is remotely credible - that Jesus was crucified, died, and was entombed; and rose again from the dead - appearing to up to 500 people at once!
With the Christmas celebrations behind us for another year, we look forward to Easter, and the celebration of that gloriously historical fact! Hallelujah!
Martin Lisemore (28/12/2010 23:45)
Hallelujah! Pesach is a most glorious time. Look back, look forward, wonderful.
Penny Lee (29/12/2010 12:10)
No need to apologise. The written word can never replace the spoken one, where it is much easier to put across the meaning of what you say. Also, when we are justifiably ultra-sensitive to a particular subject, we can see criticism or denial where there is none. You are gracious enough to admit misunderstandings and that is an admirable trait.
Martin Lisemore (29/12/2010 22:24)
Andrea, thank you. Like Peter, you are gracious to a hothead like me, albeit I'm driven by conviction.
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