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Editor (19/08/2011 19:29)
"get a balance of different theological/doctrinal perspectives"
May do; but this is the starting point.
Martin Lisemore (19/08/2011 21:37)
Begins to sound like a bull ring before a bull fight.
But please, in the combat which might follow, we're to bring glory to Jesus, not score points or enhance our own reputations.
Under that condition, I'm up for it!!!
Seumas, Tobermory (Guest) (21/08/2011 12:51)
Looks like a worthless exercise to me
1) "Putting a stop to cessationism" Hardly an unbiased title is it? "Cessationism vs Continuing Gifts" would be more appropriate as a title. Dice loaded from the start. Hardly the way to establish truths.
2) Editors comment "May do" Hardly encouraging. Real hands-in-the-pockets, shrug of the shoulders stuff that! If it is that hard to find a cessationist pastor in what is the Highlands and Islands, then something is far wrong. "Will definitely find someone else to provide a balance opposite view" would be more encouraging.
3) Debates of this type are worthless. This debate has gone on for decades. Both sides will offer "scripture proofs" to bolster their unchangeable dogmas. Both will be "right". Its a bit like trying to argue "pre", "post" or "a-" millenialism. All viewpoints can be "proved" by scripture. All cannot be right. Just like other theological controversies. Calvinism/Arminianism for example. eg Wesley to Whitefield "your God is my Devil" Or the "real presence" as opposed to symbolism at the eucharist. After all Luther said he would "rather drink blood with papists than wine with Zwinglians"
Fact is there are as many theologies as there are theologians. If the bible were as clear, tidy and unambiguous as a lot of evangelicals CLAIM that it is, you wouldnt have these controversies. I believe that this has been pointed out before on this site.
4) The bias on this site is overwhelmingly charismatic anyway. There are very few contributors I have read who would appear to be cessationist.So I suspect it will end up as a bunch of charismatic fanboys all patting each other on the back. Go on prove me wrong. The site should be called "Charismaniacs Together"
5) Some of the greatest evangelical theologians in history have been and are cessationist. Maybe there is a good reason why?
6) On this site there are numerous articles attacking wayward movements in the church today - prosperity theologians, kundalini spirits, false prophets, dodgy faith healers (like Todd Bentley) and so on. The modern church is rife with these charlatans. Every single one, without exception is charismatic. Penny dropped yet?
Martin Lisemore (21/08/2011 15:00)
Seumas, your 'facts' in point 6 don't stand up to much scrutiny. Cessationism has been with the institutional church since at least the days when Rome grabbed Christianity as a political and military tool removing at a stroke the Jewish foundation of the movement and gathering all power to itself. The God given Offices and Gifts were most inconvenient to Rome so they disappeared. Actually, I believe them to remain inconvenient in current churches.
Believe me, dodgy clerics, false teachers etc are not confined to the Charismatic movement, oh no. The Church of England, and it seems to me down here the C of S also, is led by them and has been for years. Well, they are daughters of Rome. 'Nuff said on that!
'The bias on this site is overwhelmingly charismatic ...' No.
Your penny dropping logic is also horribly flawed. There are, shall we say, a few dozen church goers who are up the wrong road. Ergo, all church goers are bad.
Again, 'nuff said!
Peter Carr (21/08/2011 20:19)
"4) The bias on this site is overwhelmingly charismatic anyway.
6) On this site there are numerous articles attacking wayward movements in the church today - prosperity theologians, kundalini spirits, false prophets, dodgy faith healers (like Todd Bentley) and so on. The modern church is rife with these charlatans. Every single one, without exception is charismatic. Penny dropped yet?"
Seumas, your comments in serial 4 and 6 seem to contradict each other. In serial 4 you slam this site for being charismatic, yet in serial 6 you also slam this site for being against charismatics! You cannot have it both ways.
Seumas, Tobermory (Guest) (21/08/2011 21:34) Back to the fray...
Martin, I am not saying "all charismatic bad" "all cessationist good" but when we look at the worst excesses in the church today, the perpetrators are overwhemingly charismatic in their theology. It is almost as if pentecostalism / charismatic practices enable this to happen. The whole charismatic thing is heavily "feelings and emotions" based and as a consequence provides the platform for charlatans to exploit with cult-like behaviour.
But I agree, the situation in a lot of the more traditional churches is dire. There are people occupying pulpots who simply shouldnt be there.
Your point - yes it may seem contradictory but the point I was trying to make is that despite all the articles on this site showing the horrors and excesses of charismatic charlatans, there is still a desire to put up with it! Plus a failure to see that the emperor is utterly naked.
The problem is, for the charismatics, that the errors and heresies and cult like behaviour can be pointed out time and again, ad nauseum, but they end up saying things like "Ah, but that's not the genuine thing, thats counterfeit" "Thats abusing the gifts of the spirit"
Which is fair enough, but it starts to sound awfully like the "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy
To my mind, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like one, well, it probably IS a duck!
Theres even a very recent example of "yet another charismatic liar" on this very site. That Lance Lambert article where he claims to have a "word" from God about Britain. He makes the error of thinking that "Great" refers to erstwhile power rather than a mere adjective comparing it to Brittany (which is the correct historic reason as one poster pointed out)
In which case, if this is a "word from God" then God has got it wrong!
Of course the provenance of this "prophecy" may just be the voices in the head of this ego-tripping deluded self-publicist....
Plenty of these false prophets around. Unfortunately.
Martin Lisemore (21/08/2011 23:13) Seumas, I do sincerely thank you for coming back. It is so very easy to have a 'pop,' on a Christian forum and disappear.
You seem very angry, as I am, and that about similar things. If you've read historic posts here you'll know I came from many years in the High Church of England (smells and bells and robes) to Methodism, (no smells, no bells and no robes) through Pentecostalism to here, out on my own. I am extremely angry about the state of the church and the Church, and the way so many gullible souls are sucked into demonic things.
I have witnessed many movements in the churches, including the Charismatic renewal which almost sundered my first marriage and many other families, and Toronto, which I observed first hand and reported on. I have seen a bishop of the church of England, in full regalia, squat down and say he was laying an egg for Jesus. Sort of puts later developments in the shade. In Toronto I've seen people in demonic gyrations uttering words, supposedly in tongues, and then faint, and in one case have a heart attack. I could go on ...
None of the above says our Lord is not present in the genuine article, and I firmly believe we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. Seek ye the Lord, the Scripture says, and again, be like the Bereans ...
Seumas, I agree with all you say in reference to my post; but again I say, I have sought the Lord in all movements in the last 30 years, and found Him weeping on the sidelines quite often.
Because the majority are bad doesn't mean everyone is. Our God never leaves Himself without a witness. And I have had the extreme privilege of finding them, sometimes.
Seumas, I am a Pentecostal; I care not to follow any man, as Paul counselled against; neither do I follow a denomination. Many are in error, but read all my posts and find an error in terms of the Bible, and please do come back to me.
Again, I say, I am as angry as you are, and if you care to continue posting, we could well find we're angry about the same things!
Jenny (22/08/2011 13:34)
Seumas, I'm a kneejerk Cessationist and when I see anyone claiming to speak in God's name it sets all the alarm bells ringing.
I'd be really interested to know how you think we should understand 1 Cor 14 v1-4,
"Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy...
...he that prophesieth edifieth the church".
I'm quite certain it's not meant to be a blanket encouragement to all the excesses of the charismatic movement, but I'm not sure either, just how it should be taken.
With regard to the title of "Great" Britain - I think objecting to it on the grounds mentioned is a bit of a semantic quibble.
For all I know the name did only arise to distinguish us geographically from Brittany (not that it seems as historically plausible as all that)) - but even if so, it's really neither here nor there.
It is a fact that Britain WAS "great", in every sense, and did great things in the world. Now it isn't, and the reason for that is spiritual decline.
Editor (22/08/2011 13:49)
I don't want to 'interrupt the flow' but just to support the remark:
"With regard to the title of 'Great' Britain - I think objecting to it on the grounds mentioned is a bit of a semantic quibble."
Straining out gnats and swallowing camels (Matt 23:24) is the way in which Scripture describes 'nitpicking' - a marvellous device for avoiding the real issue(s).
As Curlew also, and rightly pointed out - Britain was indeed a 'great' nation in the sense that many countries have looked to Britain (rightly or wrongly) as offering a standard in so many areas of life. Of course we have fallen immeasurably since; but that is not the point.
But please feel free to continue the discussion as I will need to compile a list of questions.
Peter Carr (22/08/2011 14:46)
"Seumas, I'm a kneejerk Cessationist and when I see anyone claiming to speak in God's name it sets all the alarm bells ringing."
What is the preachers job?
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