Feedback on the above article:
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Donald Boyd (25/08/2011 15:43)
For your information following the inconclusive discussion above:
“Secret place” occurs in the King James Version and the Scottish metrical version of the Psalms at Ps 18:11; 81:7; 91:1 with reference to God. Each one translates the same Hebrew word, which is also translated in other ways in other Scripture passages.
Peter Carr (25/08/2011 16:27)
Thanks Donald, but the discussion relates to the NT and Matt 6: 6, any thoughts on that?
Jenny (25/08/2011 16:56)
Thanks Donald, I knew it was somewhere. My Concordance is too small :-(
Editor (25/08/2011 20:50) For one online Bible resource (including Concordance search) -
There are many others I'm sure.
Seumas, Tobermory (Guest) (26/08/2011 11:29)
Tartan paint asked what I understood by the term charismatic - sorry for taking long in getting back - I am pretty busy right now.
Anyway, my understanding is quite simple I think - it refers to gifts described in the NT and charismatics are those who accept that these are valid for today.
The list is given in the graphic at the top of this article. I am not going to go through them all and take them apart but I will just raise a few points about one of them. Tongue speaking.
IMO, what is called tongue speaking is little more than gibberish, gibberish produced by people exhibiting expected group type behaviour in a situation of an altered state of consciousness.
Insicdentally, studies conducted on TS reveal that the phonemes and vocables used are exactly those from the speakers own native language - studies have been done on this and it shows that there is nothing extraordinary in the sounds used . So its gibberish. Heavenly, angelic language - yeah sure.....
My challenge would be this:
1) Record some of this TS nonsense
2) Play it back to someone who can supposedly interprest these things
3) Record the "interp"
4) Got to another "interpreter" and see what the response is. Record it
5) Do this a third time
6) AS year later go back to the first "interprester" and record their interpretation again
Get my point? Would the results be the same each time?
IF TS was valid and the Interpretation was a valid thing, then there should be some sort of consistency in the translations both across time and place.
The reason I mention this, is because this very sort of experiment was carried out by an American skeptic called James Randi. From his web site:
"Back to the year 1945, and my test of the interpretations of this babble given by the minister. My friend Gary and I had a very early model of a WebCor wire-recorder. This predated tape-recorders by a bit, and it was the wonder of my circle of friends. Gary and I attended a service at the church, plugged in the WebCor, unknown to the minister, and recorded some of the gibberish and the provided translations. Then, the next week, we interviewed the gentleman and played back some of the material. He gave us the divine interpretations - which were quite different from what he'd previously provided. He was not amused."
So basically tongues = BS
Just like the rest of the charsimaniac nonsense - slain in the spirit, drunken laughter, barking like dogs, rolling around and so on
But the biggest load of nonsense to do with this is when pastors tell their hearers that they are not really saved unless they can speak in tongues. Jack Hayford was guilty of this (something I discovered by reading this very web site some time ago!) But apparently he has changed his mind on this point now....
These lies, deceit and stage tricks that the charismaniacs get up to are massively damaging to Christianity IMO. They make Christians look ridiculous and an embarassment
Editor (26/08/2011 11:49) Seumas, I will put your points to the church leader by e-mail and discuss this with him on Monday.
Martin Lisemore (26/08/2011 17:25)
Seumas, 'Just like the rest of the charsimaniac nonsense,'
Not a case of baby and bathwater then?
In complete opposition to your stand point Seumas, I find the cessationism a complete nonsense; a fabrication to suit a particular desire for control. Daughters of Rome, as cited above. Clerics have so long desired to control people and they still do, although there are exceptions.
For me, cessationists put our great God in a box, there, there, we know you now, we've got you taped.
No you haven't!
Sounds like Humanism, that Christless Christianity - He's in a box, we can do without Him now, we'll think our own thoughts ... sounds like, we're the gods now. We know the answers. Who had that sort of desire. Lucifer perhaps. I'll be like God?
Well, His thoughts are higher than our thoughts, His ways different. He says so!
There are rogue Charismatics and Pentecostals, but I can name rogue Church of England vicars who don't know what salvation is. And Salvation Army people, and Methodists. These same people are eloquent in their tearing down of anything which is redolent of the God of Israel. Replacement theologians to a man, and woman unfortunately.
Before we go into a stand on gifts or no gifts, let's just be careful of the things of God and let him be God.
So lets have some balance here, balance as shown us in the Bible. Nowhere does it implicitly state the gifts will end with the Apostles.
Alistair Taylor (Guest) (26/08/2011 22:36) Having skimmed the discussion, I have seen nothing suggesting that we get out there and take God's word to the people who are currently bound for Hell.
Perhaps our focus should be on them instead of saying "I believe my point of view because..."
Tim Mackay (Guest) (26/08/2011 22:47)
its because your looking in the wrong article Alistair. theres plenty on other pages.
Alistair Taylor (Guest) (27/08/2011 09:30)
I know what you're saying and thanks for that. I am just saddened to see some of the vitriol being poured out above. If we can't discuss things without point-scoring, we are getting it wrong, whether we are biblically correct or not.
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