Who do we believe..?
Who do we believe..?
REPLIES: Page 9 of 9.
Peter Carr (03/01/2012 17:21)
"Biblical and unbiblical are two different things."
On closer examination we will soon discover that much of what goes on in our churches irrespective of denomination) is unbiblical. It can be argued very easily that the world is influencing the Church much more than is the reverse! I for my part consider myself to be a sound biblical teacher, the fact that I am the only teaching elder in my fellowship is not of my design!!
I am open and accountable, I regularly attend conferences and have recently undergone a voluntary preachers mentoring course. I am constantly striving to be a workman approved by God.
My concern with the tone of this thread is that there is too much generalisation going on. No, my situation is not ideal with me as the only teaching elder, nor is it unique!!
Jenny (03/01/2012 17:55) "....The Reformers merely played with words in this regard: renaming 'priests' as 'ministers' ....."
Ed., I don't think that's quite right. The difference between "priest" and "minister" is more than just the question of the kudos, legitimate or otherwise, attaching to the bearer of the title.
When a priest is ordained in the RCC, words are said over him which in Scripture belong only to Christ: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec...."
Editor (03/01/2012 21:57) Peter: "On closer examination we will soon discover that much of what goes on in our churches irrespective of denomination) is unbiblical."
Indeed; and that's what needs to be addressed. The forthcoming article in the 'Drilling Down' series will address some of the issues.
Regarding your own circumstance, I presume that this is a situation you inherited. If it's circumstatial then that is a pity; if it's the policy of the denomination (and denominations) than that's a big problem.
Jenny: ""Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec...."
Which is not too much different from the "apostolic succession" expressed by the laying on of hands with prayer.
It is also worth noting that the term 'reverend' only appears once in the Bible (KJV); in Psalm 111:9 which says "reverent is His name".
Peter Carr (04/01/2012 09:13)
It is a situation that I have inherited, no it is not policy. My understanding of eldership is that it is a gift of God's Spirit, He determines the gifting not men.
From what I can gather far too often in some churches there are people in eldership for reasons of kudos, that is much more worrying and potentially more damaging!!
Peter Carr (04/01/2012 09:16)
"It is also worth noting that the term 'reverend' only appears once in the Bible (KJV); in Psalm 111:9 which says "reverent is His name"."
On taking on my first charge I told the congregation that they could either call me Peter or Pastor, whichever they were comfortable with, but that I do not and will not answer to Mr or Rev as neither of these are biblical.
Jenny (04/01/2012 11:41) "......""Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedec...."
Which is not too much different from the "apostolic succession" expressed by the laying on of hands with prayer......"
I'm not sure I understand what you're meaning by "Apostolic succession" there. The technical sense claimed by the RCC, or do you mean it loosely as descriptive of Protestant laying on of hands?
Editor (04/01/2012 15:01)
Peter, thanks for your note. Indeed I tend to assume that most pastors/teachers have to labour under the system that has grown up over the centuries and which has so much contributed to 'burn out'. Incidentally I know of at least one pastor (as per his position) who was preaching and teaching 'prophetically' (he could do no other regarding what the spirit was doing in and threw him). Unfortunately the congregation wanted a nice cosy pastoral message and forced him out. He is no longer in that denomination.
Jenny, the term 'apostolic succession' is the one used to underpin the 'ordained clergy' system i.e. continuing the line from the first apostles. Its a Reformed version of the RC view on Peter as being 'the rock on which the church is built'.
When 'ministers' are 'ordained' it is by the laying on of hands; but not for 'ordinary' elders. In many presbyterian churches elders are not allowed to preach/teach unless authorised by the denomination.
What all of this does is devalue the biblical doctrine of the 'priesthood of all believers' and the 'whole body ministry' of the saints according to their respective giftings.
There are many clergymen (and now women of course) who are pastors but not preachers/teachers; and others who are preachers/teachers but not pastorally gifted. This is another huge issue for the clergy and their congregations.
Men (I use the term in an all-embracing sense) think that they can run the church in a non-biblical framework and 'get away with it'. But for all of us, we need to acknowledge that God knows best.
Again just to say that I hope to tackle this subject soon in a more structured fashion.
Penny Lee (04/01/2012 15:24)
"we need to acknowledge that God knows best."
Oh, the amount of trouble which could be avoided if we would all accept this fact.
Peter Carr (04/01/2012 16:22)
"What all of this does is devalue the biblical doctrine of the 'priesthood of all believers' and the 'whole body ministry' of the saints according to their respective giftings."
Like other doctrines, 'the priesthood of all believers' is fine in theory but not always so evident in practice, hence we often find 20% of the people doing 80% of the work, leading to the minister and spouse bearing the brunt!
It could be argued that the 'priesthood of all believers' is being replaced with a 'priesthood of all leaders' approach, where far too many who do not have a discernable leadership gift want to be in charge!!
Jenny (04/01/2012 16:44) ok, Ed, thank you. It really needs thought, and I'll be looking out for the next article :-) I think I do take the points you're making.
I only can't help seeing a huge hike between ordaining elders/"ministers" - and what the RCC claim to do, which is (in defiance of Hebrews), to make a "sacrificing" priest with power to work the miracle of transubstantiation.
But that may be aside from your main point.
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